Dans building a 2276 big ol motor

[clintonddk]

I like a deep sump. One for more oil and two you can actually run the oil level lower on the dip stick but still have enough oil in the system. The reason for running the oil level lower is to get the oil off the crank some to help free up some HP ;D

[dansam]

Sump s sounding good. What are the dissadvantages of the external oil cooler? If I run the external only and have a fan on it whatcha think? Im going to use it for EVERYTHING. Tooling around town, embarrasing hondas, drag, long distance. Im gunna drive it like the old motor frankly.

[MadMike]

Hey Clint,There"AIR" cooled not oil cooled ;D,I just don't see the need and extra expence,spend the $$ elsewhere, IF??? it does run hot(doutfull) Dan can alway add it later ;D Deep sumps are more for my bearings then for cooling Like Dave said ;D ;D

[Ruffuss]

Were you going to mount the cooler and fan? Unlike a buggy the location would be critical as air flow under and behind a bug are limited at best. My thought and that of others has always been a dog house cooler out cools the best there is as far as external cooler/fan, unless it's in addition to the doghouse.
Kenn

[MadMike]

You can mount them inside the car and have a heater ;D ;D Had one in an O'ld 65 Baja ;D ;D or the norm is above the trans with all stainless lines$$$$

[Ruffuss]

I was told and it makes sense that air turbulence over the trans nullifies the gain unless again it is in addition to the doghouse.
Kenn

[dansam]

Hmmmmmm Well. Im deff doing the external oil filter (the block is allready setup for full flow. The deep sump makes sense and is not too expensive. I guess Ill do the doghouse cooler and see how it works, like it has been mentioned adding an external cooler is not too hard even after the engine is installed.

[81pumagtc]

The deep sump makes all kinds of sense. I had forgotten to mention moving the oil away from the crank like a windage tray in a V motor. The crank never actually runs in the oil, because it magically turns oil into foam. That's really BAD. Turn the oil into an insulator, instead of cooling, and dramatically reduces the lubrication properties. (ZDDP really helps here.)

Oil can be pushed around in the standard sump when you are out terrorizing the natives with a 2276 with "hard acceleration", which can cause oil-starvation, etc. By locking the oil in the sump, you actually prevent this from happening. In "V" motors, that's what windage trays are for. Not enough oil or depth in a VW for those...only deep sumps.

I'm just curious...how smooth is a 2276? When I had BMW motorcycles, the sweet spot for the motor was 750cc, which was what it was designed for. When the kept adding displacement, first by stroking to 900cc then by stroking with a larger piston to a 1000cc, the motor got progressively more rough. It's not just balancing and counter-weighting in an opposed motor.


Dave

[dansam]

Ive seen lotsa vids and know some that have this motor, everyone says it s good for all kinda usage. Also sounds nice and smooth. Of course Im balancing everything and such. The best thing about a horozontally opposed motor is its all balanced out on both sides. Also with the counterbalanced crank it should be actually smoother than a stock 1600. My 1651 with counter balanced crank is MUCH smoother than the stock one it replaced.

Do you guys thing a 1.5 qt sump is enough or do I need to spring for the 3 qt one??

[dansam]

Any opinions???

Bob Hoover says:

VW - Deep Sump
Is it a good idea to put one of those larger oil-sump deals on your bus? It sounds like a really good idea, but is there some technical reasons that it would be harmful?

I've never seen a deep sump that didn't leak, apparently because the sump-plate studs -- even when replaced with longer units -- were never meant to carry such a load.

Reduced ground clearance, while never a problem on the drag strip, can cost you an engine in daily driving. I've seen several crankcases with chunks knocked out of them as a result of hitting something with the attached (and quickly detached) deep sump. I've also seen a couple of engines lost when the oil pick-up extension came adrift, started sucking air.

With a filled deep-sump, the oil takes forever to warm-up. And of course you have to keep the thing filled if you want your dip-stick to work :-) Drag-racing, we ran the engine with the minimum of oil, pouring in fresh for each run. It never showed up on the dip-stick because the dip-stick does not extend into the deep sump.

We used to call these things the 'Poor Man's Dry Sump'. Getting the liquid oil out of the crankcase gave us extra rpm, always important when you're trying to catch a clock. For roundy-round, rallys and road courses, we had a better results -- and less expense -- using a windage tray and fabricating extenders for the push-rod tubes. Running at speed, we thought the deeper sump would keep the oil from pooling-up out in the head... and maybe it did, for a few seconds. Fact is, running at speed the extra capacity of the deep sump doesn't mean squat -- we just ended up with an extra quart of oil in the outside head. Live and learn :-)

I thought the added surface area of the deeply finned (and properly fabricated sumps, such as the one Gene Berg made) would result in cooler oil temps. It didn't. The oil took longer to come up to normal operating temperature but once there, it was about as hot as before. Apparently the oil cooler is about twenty times as effective at cooling the oil as any form of sump --- you'd need about five times the surface area of the typical deep-sump before you saw an appreciable drop in your engine's oil temp. There's bound to be some variation here. I'm talking about using a deep-sump in California. Veedubers in Finland probably swear by the things :-)

All of the guys who claimed miraculously low oil temps after bolting on a deep-sump usually had chromed valve covers, chromed push-rod tubes, no thermostat and so on -- they were already running near the red-line before they bolted the thing on -- and most of their claims were based on only a few minutes of run-time -- the extra oil hadn't even warmed up yet.

Deep sumps are suicide off-pavement... or on-pavement for that matter, if you have to negotiate the occasional rough alley or railroad track.

Deep sumps tend to get in the way when you need to drop your engine, forcing you to raise the vehicle higher (bugs) to clear the rear apron and to use a different scooter (buses).

Finally, most of the deep sumps I've seen were very poorly made, the exception being the ones Gene Berg used to sell (I've not seen his most recent offering but I understand it's aluminum. It used to be magnesium and beautifully made, too.) The deep sumps sold locally are bubble-packed crap, cast in Taiwan and have casting inclusions and lots of CASTING SAND RESIDUE. (Someone on the Type2 List... [Thom?] ran into this problem.) It would be suicide to bolt such a thing on an engine.

The bottom line? Deep sumps first appeared on the drag strip. Kiddies bolt them on because they can and because they look kewl and because all the tits & ass VW magazines say it's the thing to do. I ran them on the strip but found them impractical on the road, sought other -- more effective -- solutions.

Your engine, your decision.

-------------------------------

Want to increase your oil capacity? Add a full-flow oil filtration system. The big FRAM PH-8A canister holds nearly a quart of oil, the hoses about half a pint.

-Bob Hoover
-1995

[dansam]

Hey that being said, check out this deal....

www.vwparts.net/50050.html

[81pumagtc]

Well, old Bob is pretty much full of you know what. This was written almost fifteen years ago, and parts are much better today than they were back in the day.

VW engines are indeed strong enough to withstand the extra weight of the sump and oil to an extent. The biggest issue with leakage is that the studs used were mild steel rated for 5 foot pounds. That's not very much, and the flange was designed for a thin steel sump...not a much heavier piece of aluminum. The alloy expands and contracts much more than the steel, and even with lock washers, it's not enough to keep the nuts tight over time. Of course, if you torqued your flange nuts every time you changed your oil, things stayed tight...and much like your sump if everything was torqued, they also stayed oil-tight.

Ground clearance, well DUH.

You have your car scraping the ground, of course things are not going to have the greatest clearance. Of course, if your tail is dragging the ground, chances are you are not driving your car fast, so you don't need a sump. Otherwise, a 1.5 quart sump adds very little additional depth to the motor. Now, sumps go wider, not much deeper as the capacity increases.

It does take longer to bring the oil to temp, but heat transferred to the oil comes from passing through things for the most part, it does not come from sitting in the sump. It does not take that much longer. Now, if you are running five quarts of oil, it will take, a little more than twice as long to bring the oil up to temp. DUH. Still, he is right, it does take longer. I really don't know why this is such an issue.

It does act as a poor man's dry sump. However, people keep thinking that by default cranks run in oil. They do not. Bad things happen when cranks run in oil. Oil foams. It's a bad thing. Even the last engine I know of that used splash lubrication for the pistons, those used by the BMW/2 engines, used special oil slingers that extended below the crank to splash oil onto the underside of the piston for cooling and lubrication. The crank never ran in oil. Oil will pool during violent maneuvers but it is only transient. It is really never an issue when driving a VW like a car. If you autocross, drag, or go round and round, precautions must be made, like for any engine.

He's right about a deep sump not actually cooling the oil, and we have been over this. Doesn't happen, and that's not why you use one.

Off road...DUH again. Every deep sump I have seen say not for off-road use. Things break off of cars that bolted on all of the time. Things break off that are welded on off road all of the time. That's why they say don't use them. Silly argument.

He is absolutely right about sand. As a matter of fact, several makers of these tell you about that, and I would never ever use one. Sand casting is inexpensive, for a reason. Use one that is pressure cast, like the Berg or the Scat you showed. CSP makes some very cool ones, and they would be OK as well. I would still wash them as well. The general rule is to never put anything that has ever been sandblasted or sand cast without first cleaning, heating, cleaning and heating at least three times. Sometimes pieces of sand embed themselves in material. Expansion (heat) makes it easier to dislodge this debris, and it has to be done several times. This is especially true if you sandblast internal parts, because often media breaks down into very small sharp pieces that are very difficult to see. Heat can cause them to come free, and just because you can't see them doesn't mean it can't damage your engine.

Bead blasted parts are NEVER used in mechanical aviation applications, and that is good enough for me.

I read this guy's opinion years ago, and have know guys like this forever. Sometimes, the old ways are the best ways, but unless you can back it up with cold hard facts, it's just an opinion, nothing more.

There seem to be more benefits to a deep sump today than detriments. I really like the SCAT deep sump you showed. Looks like a nice piece. My only issue still is how to keep things tight. I would have to do a bit of research to see the best way to do it. I know that if I don't check my sump nuts that they do loosen up in a few weeks when properly torqued to 60 inch pounds, but I just check them every few weeks.

Dave Riedle

[dansam]

hmmmmm food for thought. Im probably running one.

[clintonddk]

Hey Mike. What is one of the thinks the air is cooling? I would definitely run a Doghouse oil Cooler then if needed run the Mesa cooler. I have mine mounted next to my trans hooked to the traction bar and firewall. The fan is what make the air flow so I don't worry much about that. I was running a 2276cc engine with 12to1 compression around town and it never got hot and it loved the highway to. About the only time I really remember hearing the fan turn on is when I would come to a stop at stop lights or parking lots.

Dave, my 2276cc engine would purr like a kitten. I even had Marv Wardell comment on how smooth it sounded. I was also up to Saton one time when two guys came over to me when I was warming up the engine, one of the guys asked me what kind of times my car was turning so I responded mid to low 12s. He turned to his buddy and said see it doesn't have to be load to be fast LOL. This engine was balanced. each individual piece was balanced it was not balance as a unit. I have yet to build an engine that way. My parts guy always responds by saying it is to hard to replace just one piece if you balance them that way.
Boy I miss that engine.

[dansam]

Anyone have a link to show how the full flow setup external filter plums in? I have seen the place where the output comes from (lower right of block) where does it go back in? I never really payed attention at the shows to this. I never ran a full flow (just one of those filter/pumps) Ive seen lots of full flow set ups that use a pump plate and also those that use the oil cooler in/outs but when you use the fitting at the block where does it go back in? I dont have the block/heads yet (next week!) but Im trying to get this built in my mind and am starting to gather parts.

12to1 compression sounds like it needed race gas full time! Im not going that crazy. But I need to start figuring out deck hight and other details.